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tv   Unionizing Student Athletes  CSPAN  May 12, 2014 2:00am-4:17am EDT

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they must step up and provide the health care and academic support the student needs. most institutions are doing just that. some are not. no student athlete injured while representing their school on the field should be left behind because of the misplaced priorities of a college or university. can the ncaa institutions do more to protect students? absolutely. they can give students a greater ale at good work to help sports injury does not end a student's academic career and find a responsible solution that will deliver the health care and injured players might need.
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football players at north western university are employees of the school for the purpose of collective bargaining. the ballots cast have been impounded pending review by the full board. this,the track record of i suspect the board. her stance that iraq -- i suspect the board will rubberstamp the decision. schools, organizations, students in the public are searching for answers to countless questions. what issues would union representing college athletes raise at the bargain table? perhaps the union would seek to bargain over the number of games. what players go on strike?
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with student athletes on strike attend class? how would they provide financial support to the union? would dues be deducted before scholarships? are students expected to pay out-of-pocket? we know many student athletes struggle financially. where will smaller colleges and universities find the resources to manager -- to manage labor unions? schools ready to make some difficult decisions, such as cutting support to other athletic programs? other policiesll affect our higher education system? our college campuses prepared for -- our college campuses prepared for micro unions? anl students be able to make informed decision about joining the union in as few as 10 days well attending class and going
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to practice? these are tough questions and should be discussed before students and administrators are forced to confront a radical departure from long-standing policy. players the concerns of that progress is too slow, but forming a union is not an answer . the challenges facing student athlete should be addressed in a way that protects the athletic connect in the integrity of higher education. the recent decision takes a fundamentally roach -- fundamentally different approach. i urge the obama board to change course and encourage stakeholders to get to work. i look forward to today's discussion. i recognize mr. george miller. >> thank you. hearing we're having a to better understand what is happening in college athletics, to wear out the grievances that have been raised by the northwestern university and around the country. the nostalgic days when student and one were students
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college sports was about , thoseg sportsmanship days are pretty much over. the last four decades, colleges and universities have perfected the art of monetizing athletic way of the best football and basketball teams. they have created nothing less than a big sports empire. by a consumed in driven multibillion-dollar television, radio, multimedia deals, branding agreements, prime time sports shows, and celebrity coaches with seven figure salaries. the athletes have become commodities within these empires . they are overscheduled and overworked. their courage to put their education on the back burner in favor of success on the field.
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-- they are encouraged to put their education on the back burner in favor of success on the field. you want to know what happens to them if they suffer a catastrophic injury on the field. will they lose their scholarship? and the chance of an education and a career? how much of their health care will they need to pay out-of-pocket? they are reading about new studies and long-term effects of head injuries and they want to know if the schools and coaches are doing all they can to prevent brain injury on the field. will their health come first? desire to winam's trump the health concerns of the individual player question mark they are raising questions about the adequacy of their scholarships and the restrictions that leave them with little to no support. why are some of the teenage finding themselves unable to afford enough food to beat her books for their classes will the university -- enough food to eat
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or books for their classes? fairt to discuss a transfer policy. how can policies be changed to support the player success in academics him and not just athletics? the labor relations board decision regarding northwestern documents and all-consuming eye-popping demand of the college football player in today's mega-profit driven ncaa world. the daily life of a football player revolves from practice and preparation. a 50 hour a week amendment. commitment. you can see the sample schedule displayed here on the screen. underneath the screen, excuse me. players are expected to report the training room by 6:15 a.m. on monday morning. by 7:00, various meanings. hatton helmets until noon. at night that they meet with
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coaches to review game films. conditioning, weight lifting, playbooks to study. from the beginning of the august training camp through the grueling 12 week season two postseason and to mid-january, winter warm-ups to february winning edge week, mandatory spring workouts, high-stakes football preparation, nonacademic edit chick -- nonacademic commitments become the priority. business empire of college sports is doing very well. the revenues are up 32% in the last six years and many universities are hiking tuition and fees, turning to underpaid overstretched adjunct faculty. they are making more and more money and the athletes are getting less and must. a classic, this is labor dispute. the empire is holding all the
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cards, making all the rules, capturing all the profit. the hardest working most valuable components in the system are left with little to say, little leverage, and no blocking or tackling but themselves. by banding together, these athletes can when the kinds of things union workers have demanded across the country. i say about avoiding serious injury on the job, medical benefits, meaningful input into how they will balance their work. with their academic needs and their other responsibilities. the respectful treatment and care they so richly deserve. i look forward to hearing from today's witnesses. >> all committee members will be permitted to submit written statements. the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow statements and other extraneous materials.
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it is my pleasure to introduce our distinguished panel. in light of my feelings voice and a very long resumes of our witnesses, i will be brief. starting to my left, we have ken starr, the president and chancellor of baylor university. bradford livingston is a partner in chicago. andy schwartz is a partner at os kr in emeryville, california. is director of athletics of stanford university. mr. patrick eilers is managing director ed madison dearborn partners in chicago and former minnesota viking. i could not stop. before i recognize you to provide your testimony, let the remind everyone that the five-minute lighting system --
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the system is pretty straightforward. you will have five minutes to give your testimony. the light will be green. after four minutes, it will turn yellow. i would hope that you would be look to wrapping up your testimony when it turns red. lee's wrapup as expeditiously as you can. -- please wrapup as expeditiously as you can. we are here for you to give us the benefit of your expertise. of thebe respectful other witnesses and wrap up your testimony. the arable kenh starr. -- the honorable ken starr. >> thank you, mr. chairman. it is not a to be here and to discuss this very important issue. be here andhonor to to discuss this very important issue. served as president and
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cto of baylor university since june of 2010. it is located in waco, texas, and it is a private christian university. it is ranked as a high research comprehensive university and it is a vibrant community home to over 15,000 students. baylor is a founding member of the big 12 conference. we sponsor 19 varsity teams. we are blessed at baylor to have student athletes who succeed both in the classroom and on the playing field. over the past three years, baylor university has been the most successful division i row graham and combined -- program in combined winning percentage is for football and basketball. these accomplishments do not count ultimately in terms of
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what we emphasize. as commencement approaches next weekend on our campus, we are celebrating our academic accomplishments. we gather together a monday evening to do exactly that, to honor our student athletes performance in the classroom. during the prior academic year, 86% of senior student athletes at baylor received an undergraduate re-and many have gone on -- undergraduate degrees and many have come on -- gone on to pursue graduate degrees. our student athletes accumulated a gpa of 3.27 and 347 of our student athletes were named the big 12 commissioner's honor roll. these are remarkable times for .aylor and its athletic program
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the reality is that even in these best of times, college athletics, including a baylor, is not a profit generating activity. it is that -- it does not generate profits for baylor, nor for the vast majority of institutions of higher education. the regional directors recent in the northwestern university case has characterized our student athletes as employees. this is an unprecedented ruling. in our view, it is misguided. term student athlete israel on our campus and we would invite members to come to our campus and see for themselves. it is a relationship which provides college education and beyond. at baylor, student athletes are first and foremost students and they are expected to be. we are far removed from a professional sports franchise.
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we are dedicated to each and every student welfare. at baylor and across the nation, student athletes benefit from a wide array of services that are specific to designed to maximize their potential as students. and to prepare the student athletes for their journeys in life after college. and programss contribute significantly to their ultimate academic success and may include academic advising, degree planning, career counseling, any institutions provide very high quality academic support, such as tutoring service, computer labs, and study lounges. we have study hall. student athletes receive specific financial benefits, which help them progress toward degree completion.
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these benefits are very familiar , tuition, room and board, fees, books, and other elated expenses. what is the purpose? the purpose and offering financial assistance is to encourage our student athletes to carry on and to complete their academic work and the vast majority do. the nlrb has expressed a view that the legal issue of employee status is ultimately a matter of congressional intent. we agree with that. in this instance, the regional director has mechanically applied a rigidly wooden task drawn from the common law. absence of any congressional intent to include college athletics is an employment then you -- as an employment venue. it does create a dichotomy.
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notes thatn northwestern university is nonsectarian. but the nlrb has been struggling . someould reasonably expect private religiously affiliated universities to challenge the board's authority to be regulating institutional missions expressly granted in the religious view. the second disparity is the decisions implicit exclusion of state institutions and .ntercollegiate athletics this will likely create many discrepancies among the nation's universities. >> thank you. ester livingston, you are recognized. [inaudible] good morning. as the supreme court has noted,
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principles developed for the industrial setting cannot be imposed blindly in the academic world. i fully support the purposes in allowing them to leave the freedom to choose whether or not to form a labor union and bargain collectively, the nlrb has recognized the problem of attempting to force a student university relationship into the traditional employee-employer framework. the university's primary mission is to educate its students. student athletes are neither hired by a college are providing services for calm and patient. athletes are students who are participating in programs with a dual role as both student and athlete treating these participants as employees changes them from students who are student athletes to professional athletes who are also students. even if student athletes could be considered employees, the employeendefined,
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status conflicts with the remaining principles contained in the act. consistent with labor agreements, a college athlete union could negotiate over the scheduling and duration of his times, distribution of playing time, scholarship allocation and player position. the broad range of statutory wages, hours, and other terms of conditions described. they could likewise negotiate over academic standards. the number and form of examinations. grievance procedures to challenge a professors grade. unlike with statutory requirements, the college cannot refuse to bargain. in thentual differences
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conditions under which collegiate teams practice and compete will guarantee competitive and balances. it college football players are employees, they make it clear they may work in its inappropriate -- and an appropriate bargaining unit. difficulty would've proving the remainder of the football team shares interest is a labor union seeks to represent just the team's offense or just the quarterbacks. different potential union roles modest compared to what will happen with college teams compete under different work rules negotiated with respective nutrients -- unions. any team is a private employer under the jurisdiction that can thereby be covered under a
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single collective-bargaining unit. the major professional sports leagues have their own collective harkening agreements that cover the league and all its teams. those agreements provide a level playing field. unlike professional leagues, the same amount be true and college folk all. -- college football. -- it is almost certain the regime for recognizing and bargaining with unions will not apply to the remaining 85% that are public universities governed by state laws and beyond the nlrb jurisdiction. some states regulate public sector employee collective-bargaining. limit it to certain
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subjects are types of employees. other states have no laws. a bill before ohio's house of representatives clarifies the strand athletes -- student athletes are not employees. can i get legislators indicate they will introduce legislation stating -- connecticut legislators indicate they will introduce legislation stating that they are, in fact, employees. every college team must fend for with employee athletes. athletic departments that can afford it may be able to hire the best employers. institutions are not as -- may attract lesser talent. the resulting patchwork of createting statuses will competitive imbalances. the national labor relations act is not an appropriate vehicle to address student athletes concerns, athletic conferences,
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or the ncaa. treating the student athletes as employees is simply unworkable. thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts with you today. you, mr. schwartz, you are recognized. thank you for allowing me to testify. i name is andy schwartz and am an economist who specializes in antitrust and the economics of college sports. i'm a partner with a firm called os kr. nlrb authorized an election for northwestern football athletes and to start i want to provide a few facts. scholarship foot ball athletes devote 40-60 hours a week during a five-month season.
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received no academic credit. they are not supervised by faculty. foot wall is not a direct part of the curriculum. this panel is focused on unintended consequences of unionizing college football, so i want to explain that the biggest threat to college sports is the price-fixing cartel called the ncaa. 351 division i schools stifle healthy economic competition through collusion to impose limits on all forms of athlete compensation. college football is an enormous the popular consumer product. it generates passion from fans and billions in revenues from schools, broadcast television networks. it reported 3.2 billion in revenue in the most recent federal filings. departmentsthletic
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generate more revenue than almost all nhl and nba teams. former ncaa president explained that maximizing revenue was the only responsible path for college sports. how as why -- that is vibrant business should behave. there is an economic darkside which is price-fixing. togetherrust laws were to ensure that when sports leagues and athletes form partnerships, negotiations are fair. given the one-sided power imposed by collusion, it is not surprising the players have turned to labor law and to unionization for a modicum of bargaining power. other american sports involve negotiating with the union to achieve a competitive outcome. leagues usually encourage unionization.
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the nfl went to court to demand they remain a union. as an economist, i focus on the athletes free market value, which is high. they are focused on enhancing ,etter medical coverage reducing head trauma, improving graduation rates. because of time limits, i will summarize my point and leave the rest for questions. because most athletes to not go on to work in the nfl, ncaa collusion denies 95% or more of college athletes of their four best sports earning years. for some, those may be there for earning years. it goes to coaches and into elaborate recruiting palaces. college football coaches can make as much as $7 million a year.
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collusion shifts the burden from a private school at northwestern to taxpayer funded pell grants, sometimes even food stamps, or by forcing students to leave school to support their families. the current tax code exempts the tuition portion of athletic scholarships and tuition remission paid to university employees. nothing in the nlrb ruling should change that and congress has the power to make sure that does not happen. the ncaa limits consumer choice with a one-size-fits-all product offering. student -- the term student athlete was created to dodge legal responsibility for athletes safety and to avoid economic competition. from new tv deals alone are sufficient for an orderly rendition to a market-based economy.
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americans have the legal right to economic markets free of collusion. an athlete that has bargained to fed,e his -- he is well given rail access to a full range of majors and programs at the school and provided with health and safety rules the lower the risk of serious head trauma or lifelong disability is going to be in a better position to benefit from a true education than a hungry athlete forced into a dead-end major. thank you for your time. i am pleased to be here to provide the comments of student athletes at stanford university. i hope to hope illuminate some of the larger issues you are addressing today.
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stanford has 7000 undergraduate students and 9000 graduate students. university is recognized for its academic quality. we offer 36 rc sports. -- varsity sports. 900 students participate in intercollegiate sports. stanford has won the directors cup, which honors the most successful program in the division i sports for the last 19 years. we're very proud of the athletic achievements of our student athletes. athletics, we never lose sight of the university's larger mission. stanford is a university first. we believe the most important thing for our student athlete is to walk out the door is a stanford degree. 97% of our athletes achieve this goal, including 93% of our foot off student athletes -- football student athletes. other.hances the
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one out of every eight undergraduate student at stanford is a student athlete. his is not a separate group having a separate experience. classes,in the same same labs, same undergraduate housing. they have the same exam schedules. completiongree requirements as other students. the rigor of the enterprise begins with the admissions process. stanford is not met anyone who is not confident to succeed academically at the university. this evaluation occurs in the admissions office independent of the athletic department. our student athletes demonstrate how importantly they view a stanford education by taking all steps the need to complete it. andrew luck of the indianapolis bypass the opportunity to
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leave stanford with the year of eligibility left and enter the professional sports world. they remained at stanford to complete their degree. even among the few stanford athletes who do not complete a degree he for becoming a professional athlete, many to come back to finish later. whatever path they take, their stanford experience will provide them with outstanding preparation for success in the world. the academic grounding they receive a solid and the athletic experience builds i teaching leadership, strategy, team dynamics, problem solving, and other capacities critical to success. i discuss all of these issues in my written testimony before you. i want to address a related question about how revenue is used. majority of our 36 sports do not.
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all of the revenue the university receives is used to support the overall click program, including the 87% of our athletes who participate in the other 34 sports. we use this revenue to support athletic activities, providing these opportunity is very important to us. andddress the needs concerns of student athletes. we were very hard to ensure that the author academic and athletic experiences are excellent and properly supported. soliciting honest feedback is critical to that object it and we have a variety of avenues for doing so. byy of the issues identified the unions are issues we are addressing at stanford. we are always open to making improvements that are within our with thend to working ncaa to improve its rules on issues such as minimum academic rugrats and scholarships --
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academic progress and scholarships. benefits ofrengthen programs such as ours will be considered as a national discussion continues. there is a variation on these issues from school to school and while i have been speaking today about stanford, there may well be differences at other institutions. stanford stands ready to talk with and work with others who are likewise interested. thank you. >> thank you. thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today and present my views on the ongoing to improve the environment for student athletes on college campuses. before i do so, i would like to make clear that my comments are strictly my own. i was a student athlete at the university of notre dame, and later obtained a masters degree
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from the kellogg graduate school of management at northwestern, i do not speak for nor do i represent these institutions. i speak only for myself. i graduated from the university of notre dame in 1989 with a bachelor of science degree in biology. i pursued a second undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering, which i received a year later. while i was a student, i played four years varsity for all and played on varsity baseball. i transferred from yell at the end of my sophomore year and had a fifth-year back in eligibility. toransferred to notre dame pursue excellence in the classroom and on the football field. i felt notre dame offered me the opportunity to do well in both. easy, it wasnot achievable. the infrastructure remains in place to assist students athletes to achieve at notre dame. i have a daughter who is currently a collegiate student
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athlete there and i've witnessed further improvements in the program, such as mandatory study hall. formerre today as a collegiate student athlete. i am not an attorney, so i believe the legal argument to the experts to my right. the impetus for today's panel is that collegeling athletes are deemed employees. it would able -- it would enable them to unionize. the union pursuit is a means to an end, a vehicle to implement improvements to our collegiate athletic system. i believe there is little debate about necessary improvements, which i will describe. i believe the debate should be focused on seeking the most effective vehicle to cause the implementation of these improvements. the crocks of the problem is that student athletes should be
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students first and foremost. i'm concerned that calling student athletes employees will -- make the system more of a business than it already is. many to gravitate athletics towards a student centered model, not the other way around. i worry about the unintended consequence of being deemed an employee and what unionization could bring to college athletics. athlete, i student support many of the goals of the national college players association and the college athletes player's association. i favor mandated four-year scholarships, health insurance benefits and stipends. four-year scholarships, the student athlete, you should be able to maintain athletic scholarship for at least four years from the day you enter college.
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with the goal of obtaining an undergraduate degree. the obligation should be maintained regardless of your productivity on the athletic field and even if you sustain a permanent injury. the sad reality at some colleges that the student athlete is not performing on the field, or athletic scholarship may not be renewed. -- they're athletic scholarship may not be renewed. help an insurance benefits. and insurance benefits. the scholarship should not be reduced or eliminated and there should be guaranteed coverage for adequate expenses. student athletes at sustain permanent injury should be afforded health care insurance benefits for life. i also hasten to add that all college athletic programs should
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enhance their efforts to minimize the risk of sports related injuries. student athlete should be afforded stipends of they can handle out of pocket expenses. at the very least, i need based assessment. if four-year scholarships are mandated, not at the option of each college, but i'm ok with current transfer restrictions. i was a product of these transfer restrictions. if honoring four-year scholarships to not -- is not required, the one time no penalty transfer option should be afforded to all student athletes. these initiatives are obvious and necessary improvements. the first three have monetary implications, which i recognize makes it more difficult to implement. wever, i believe there is clearly plenty of money in the
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believe- however, i there is clearly plenty of money in the system. dedicated toon is safeguarding the well-being of student athletes and equipping them with the skills to succeed on the playing field and classroom. if this mission statement is true, why haven't these goals already been implemented? i believe this problem exists simply because the fact that the ncaa is a membership driven organization made up of colleges and universities, but conferences and affiliated groups. perhaps because of this charter, it appears to me that the ncaa may not been able to give consensus from its diverse membership on these issues. i do not have a solution to this problem, that i questioned the need to unionize to effectuate the implication of these initiatives. it is difficult to maintain that we truly have a student athlete system given that o'gara to it givenes for student --
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the low graduation rates for student athletes across the country. how classifying them as employees is going to improve the situation. i was a student athlete at notre dame. i was not an employee at the university nor did i want to be one. i played sixers professional football, including three years for the redskins, where i was an employee and i wanted to be one. thank you. >> thank you. i think all the witnesses. a panel of true experts. because you are on a roll, i will start with you. the guy from st. paul who goes on to do all these things, we are very proud of you. when you were at notre dame, you are part of a national championship team and i'm deeply
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disappointed you could not help the vikings be a super bowl team. daughteroned that your is playing lacrosse and notre dame. -- at notre dame. i am wondering if you were ever discouraged at notre dame for taking a class or pursuing a major because you were a student athlete. >> i was not. they encouraged us to pursue her academic passions. on fromou wisely moved a bachelors degree in biology, which i also found useless. , youof us on this panel mentioned a lot of issues that could be and should be addressed.
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injuries. you had a list of things that ought to be looked at in your conclusion was that is something the universities, notre dame and all of them, ought to be addressing and that being a member of the union would not help that. am i oversimplifying your position? baylor, notre dame, stanford, and it is an option to provide for your scholarships. that is not universally adopted across the country. i think for student athlete not to graduate from university with a degree in hand is a total disservice. >> thank you. , you mentioned something like 86%. could you talk about your graduation rate?
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82% didlast year, graduate. pursuer did go on to advanced degrees as well. individual choice. what is the culture? that is the responsibility of the university. does it create a culture that encourages the students to do the best that he or she can question mark there obviously important issues to be addressed and we completely agree with that and we are part of a conversation that is nationwide. what can we do better? we know there are things that can be improved, especially the full cost of attendance. the real question with respect usehe nlrb, are we going to the national labor relations act
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as a tool for negotiating improvements? it seems to be exactly the wrong way to go. for starters, the collective bargaining agreement -- unit that was recognized by the regional director does not include the entire football team. , theu are a walk on going toative is not be representing you. you will be outside the unit. that is a fundamental issue. we are treating all of our student athletes the same and we want to encourage this culture that we want you to go to school. we want you to earn your degree and we want you to help prepare you for your journey in life. >> thank you. .ack to stanford
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in your testimony, you talked about how foot all and basketball -- football and basketball were moneymakers. >> the resources that we derive from media rights goes back into supporting 36 sports, one of the larger offerings run the country. it is to enhance that experience for all of our student athletes, the 900 we support. >> ester miller? >> -- mr. miller? not callingyou're for a larger bargaining unit. continuity of interest, the community of interest. >> thank you very much for your testimony because he testified in a very straightforward manner about the issues the students at northwestern were racing. they are endemic to the foot all
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programs around the country -- football programs around the country and that is the security of their scholarship. the health insurance benefits. these things start to accumulate on some students. the stipend issue that you raised in the transfer issue. these are the issues the to form felt necessary a union around because they were not getting satisfaction. i would suspect you would find that if you travel to most college campuses. the students feel they are they are only there for four years or five years and they are not being addressed. i find it interesting that the other witnesses held the testimony to that notion and
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that is their belief that this is a student athlete. these athletes at northwestern said what about the athletic side of it? what about where we spent 50 hours a week? what security do we have? apparently, that can never quite get addressed. mr. swartz, that brings me to you. mr. livingstone's testimony, he can tell you why this integral work between conferences and the colleges and the media would not be a shield against issues raised by this bargaining unit. network is used as a weapon against the athletes. that same network is used as a weapon when they want to talk about, is our stipend fair? they do not have any voice at
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all and the school is happy giving you -- that is not every school in the leak. -- league. we have to check with the conference. we are bound by the rules. what conference you get in, conferences are like some oddities. they're moving them around to generate tv issues. >> if you are a handful of students in the northwestern -- how you will be heard and how you will get results during your career. >> if i could address a couple of things. baylor treats all of the student athletes the same. that is not true. there's a cap on how many students can receive scholarships and walk ons are prohibited from receiving scholarships.
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system. already a cast caste system. a collusive cap that prevents it. directly to your point, the way i like to think about the claim that schools are poor and there iswhat department, and it similar to a wall street banker who brings in a million dollars in salary and maybe he has kids in college and maybe he has been divorced twice. once he's is done paying for all of those things, there is not a lot of money left. but that is sort of the point -- >> that is sort of the point. not enough money to provide those scholarships and not enough money to help the other
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sports. the escalating coaches salaries are creating an unsustainable growth of athletic expenses. more more people are joining a fraternity. cannot quite take care of your athletic obligations campuswide. i think we see the ncaa has constructed a very interesting to beerwhelming network used against these kinds of questions being raised, even a commission as prominent as the knight commission. that is why the students chose to become employees. classical employer-employee relationship. i ask unanimous consent to submit for the record a letter from the american council on education which warns that treating student athletes on
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employees would have negative consequences. >> this is an article from the stanford daily. student athletes had access to easy courses. thank you, mr. chairman. i want to thank all of our witnesses here today. you've provided some fascinating information and i'm grateful to you. as someone who's spent a lot of time in education and higher education, dealt with student athletes and students who were not athletes. i appreciate the information. understand -- judge starr, i understand baylor's priorities are academic. can you explain the athletic programs?
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keys is thee landing process that goes into developing the major landing -- landing and schedule and student athletes do have priority in terms of registration so we do not have a crowding out kind of question at all. year,hout the academic there is a careful monitoring of that student progress. those issues are going to be addressed. that is why we have seen a steady increase in recent years come even before my watch, -- recent years, it even before my watch. we want the student athletes to have that entire reservoir of support and that is why the gpa averages 3.27. it is a very labor-intensive and very student athlete specifically focused activity. >> i am assuming you have study
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hall. first-years.for there are abundant study facilities available. very conveniently located. >> let me come back to the regional direct or's opinion. a list ofs restrictions placed on the athletes. they have to obtain permission from the coaches, posting items on the internet and speaking to the media. they are also prohibited from using alcohol and drugs and engaging in gambling. this may sound like a silly question, but please tell me why you place these restrictions on student athletes. >> it is to create a team culture and to ensure appropriate behavior.
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arrives student athlete , here she is presented with student athletic handbook and the earliest pages say, here is the kind of behavior that is forbidden. it reflects poorly on the university and the team and is destructive of the culture. there are a number of are allions, but they grounded in experience. >> some of those things are things no student should be doing, correct? >> one of the things when you go through the -- shall not list, it it is very comparable -- comparable. rules. community of these are the rules that bind us all. >> i would like to ask you this question.
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know the decision made by the has implications for title , worker's compensation laws, tax laws, fair labor standards act. would you tell us your thoughts for baylor and for stanford? >> they are very serious issues with respect to title ix. football scholarships didn't athletes are all employees, it is going to create a very serious issue in terms of the balance with respect to it title ix requires. there'll be host of other issues as well. injuries are important. health is very important. triggered,n will be
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does osha have jurisdiction? it is going to raise a hornets nest of issues. path, ourve that students are students first. many of the issues the northwestern student athletes raise, we were already covering at stanford. if we call the employees and they just become a working relationship, i do think some of those things as title ix and making sure we provide a broad offering comes at risk. >> the gentlelady's time has expired. mr. bishop? >> thank you for your testimony. you have highlighted some of the issues that i want to talk about. you described the effort at northwestern as a means to an end.
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it is also fair to describe it as a cry for help. we talk about having the student athletes interest at the center of what we do and i used to run a college, a division ii school. nobody is talking for the student. what is happening at northwestern is that this is an effort to get somebody to listen. i want to address this to judge starr. you both represent highly regarded prestigious institutions that have succeeded on the athletic field and in the classroom. you both are members of very large conferences. to go over what the players that northwestern are asking for. they are asking for efforts to minimize brain trauma risk. they're asking to prevent player us from being stuck paying sports related medical expenses.
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they are asking that graduation rates increase. that universities be prohibited from using a permanent injury suffered during athletics as a reason to reduce or eliminate the scholarship. they're asking to establish and enforce uniform safety guidelines in all sports to help prevent serious injuries. they're asking to prohibit the punishment of college athletes that have not committed a crime. is there anyone on that list that is unreasonable? any piece of that that your institution would say, i am awful sorry, we cannot do that? would you each be willing to lead an effort in your respective conferences to see to it that your fellow member institution is saying, absolutely. it ise absolutely right, the right thing to do. >> mr. bishop, the series of
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questions, they are important. there are legitimate. we are continually working toward addressing them. take the concussion policy, the ncaa does have a concussion policy and requires members -- we continually monitor that. our studies underway from the university of virginia and the studyas directly funded a . this is involving science. >> here is my question. i do not mean to be rude, but i only have five minutes. unionization -- if is as bad as so many think it is, should we not use this as a catalyst, not just talk about conversations, let's do it. you are very powerful
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institutions in very powerful conferences that people look to for leadership. can you not just say, we will lead an effort to make this happen? i believe it is happening. can we move more quickly? of course. it is a serious conversation. these myriad issues are under serious review and it is not just a conversation. things are happening. conversations, who is speaking for the student athlete? >> i would say there is a multiple of individuals speaking for the student athletes. the number of constituencies both saying when he student athletes foists -- we need student athletes voice. they are thinking about this and they are trying to take leadership roles. athletic directors. discussionrominent
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point because we do want to make sure the student athlete experience is that best that it can possibly >> i hope that we can get to the point where we hold coaches to the same standards we hold student athletes. a coach can break a contract with impunity. when you left yale university, you had to sit out. i don't understand why a coach can break a contract with impunity and a student athlete can get penalized. do you want to comment on that? >> i do think -- i don't understand why we can't get there -- people should go to college to get degrees. part of their educational experience, for me, was participating in sports related programs just like someone would do drama, speech, debate, what
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have you. it has made me a better father, better husband, better person. i would disagree with mr. swartz's characterization. i think it is integral. what we need to do is make sure that student athletes have the ability to go to an institution for four years and earn a degree , and leave with a degree. i would respectfully disagree that there should be some quid pro quo, that person should make a commitment to that coach to give them for years of service coming out of high school. if we don't do that, i would submit to what you are suggesting, that we should allow people -- it should be equal. to be a two-way street equal for both parties. >> the gentleman's time has expired. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. just to clarify a couple of
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things, full disclosure, the head basketball coach and where i director of went to college, did both jobs. committed toly college athletics. i donated money to build a center at the college. mr. swarts, you pointed out how much money. most don't live at that lofty level. most colleges lose money on athletics. they don't make money. a few of the big schools do, but at austin, it is a $9 million budget a year, not a $90 million budget. most schools at that level are struggling. unionization at a private ,niversity -- student athletes i agree totally with you. you can transfer now without
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loss of time if you transfer at a division -- at a different level. or judge, livingstone what concerns me is, when i played sports, it was fun. you sound like it is some kind of drudgery here. for the most part, sports are fun. that is why you play sports. he added his said, experience as a student athlete and it made him -- he mentioned it. " can -- he mentioned it very eloquently. i think it has added. you think this ruling could cause schools to drop football or sports. >> we have to consider all options in terms of the best interest of the university. i know that the president of the university of delaware has said,
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and he was a student athlete himself, that the university of delaware would not be able to continue. it is raising a host of serious questions. i think it could at a minimum cause curtailments. it raises the issues we talked about under title ix. a very important balance to achieve as a matter of policy and law. it is simply the wrong way to go, to address these very important issues. the number of questions that are raised are so myriad. they are remarkably wide-ranging. i don't think there is a real answer for most of these questions. the standards act is yet another. the antitrust laws themselves. sea ofringing us into a complete uncertainty. >> i agree. go ahead. >> if i might add, the issue
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that mr. swartz talked about in terms of the protection for entire leagues, where they all belong under one collective agreement, that does not exist in college sports. nlrb would only govern 17 out of the approximately 120 schools that play football. you end up with a potential arms race for those that can afford it and others may make a decision to get rid of it. sports are competitive. the teams that want to win are going to pay their way up to win. >> i think of northwestern unionize is, they are going to play 12 homecoming games. in the event that a student athlete unionizes, is it possible that student athletes will strike? >> it is a traditional tool in collective bargaining. that seems an idea
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to be unthinkable, that the football team goes on strike. what about the non -scholarship athletes? does that mean they also walk out on class? what is their relationship to the academic enterprise? i think you said it -- when i was in college, students were true student athletes. our quarterback had a 4.0 as a mathematics major. you are obviously an incredible athlete. comments were absolutely spot on. that is the way we should look at it, as a student athlete. some students play in the band. some practice for hours. some go to rotc. i will give you the final say on this. >> actually, the gentleman's time has expired.
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[laughter] early in timing. >> thank you, mr. chairman. testimony, most people i think would agree that what happened at northwestern was because the ncaa has treated a vacuum. if you look at the mission statement of the college athletes players association, one of the items is to provide better due process in sanction actions. i represent the university of connecticut. we had a pretty exciting spring. napier made two courageous comments during the lead up to the tournament. number one, describing in a way that might be embarrassing to some, that sometimes he went to bed hungry. it is because of the dickel and in mickey mouse ncaa rules terms of what universities can
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provide to students. comical to rush to announce a new rule that has been changed and reformed. for a lot of us, it seems at times that the only thing that changes is external pressure. that is what i think this event at northwestern has -- we wouldn't be having this hearing to talk about the plight of students but for the actions of those students. there are other times when these sanctions are far more pernicious than missing a midnight snack. napier said.at mr. that the ncaas and gauges in, unfortunately shoots the bystander in an effort to have some measure of student athletes. that school is banned because of a cohort of students who had
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poor academic performance and there is no one that is going to dispute that. in 2007, not one player on that team was at the university when those scores triggered an apr finding. yet they found themselves in a situation where they were banned from postseason play because of a rule that makes no sense. other schools are doing the one and done system. try and explain that to the average person, why that is ok and yet a student is punished. by the way he is going to graduate in a couple weeks. he is getting punished for somebody that he never even knew in terms of their performance. skeptical of the protections for students who get swept up in this bizarre byzantine system of trying to comport with some definition of
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student athletes. with all due respect to the witnesses, the colleges and universities have their own pressures in terms of not rocking the boat to step up and provide real honest to god advocacy for students who are getting swept up. paris jones was disqualified at a lower because his mother -- at or because his mother took three small loans when he was a sophomore. he was punished later in his college career because his mother was in a desperate financial situation and took a short term loan. for that,ts to about but nonetheless, why would he get punished for that except for to ncaa's desperate attempt comport with the definition of student athlete? about treating people with dignity, that is to me what is so offensive. the ncaa has violated patient rights.
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the power that they can exert tramples on people's ability to just have basic due process rights when these sanction hearings and investigations. i was wondering if you could put your comments in that. >> i think it is a great step that the ncaa has started saying that if the school wants to give an appellee a meal, they are allowed to. previously, the choice was prohibited beyond a certain number of meals. that is the level of cartel control we see here. the issue is not whether a benevolent organization will deign to provide the people who bring value with some crumbs. it is a voice. it is advocacy. i don't know how often james brown is quoted in here. i don't want nobody to give me nothing. open up the door, i will get it myself. that is what the movement is about. a and c- it is
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violation to ask for money right now. you get permanently banned. >> the gentleman's time has expired. i want to commend him. getting into bragging without mentioning the basketball word. [laughter] >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate all of you being here today. i want to go to mr. livingstone first and ask a few questions. mr. livingston, the regional director's the decision because --te universities universities as state government entities are excluded from coverage. that means the decision only applies to a portion of universities.
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>> the nlra covers organizing right bargaining and the to engage in economic action. all of those differ under various state laws. some prohibit public sector bargaining entirely. don't have the right to engage in economic action. others would have arbitration. you would have different subjects being negotiated in different agreements. you would end up with individual bargaining on a level playing field. compete, youams have got something that i don't think is workable. important that is an
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point. if the scholarship athletes to employment,ms of parties are compelled to bargain over mandatory subjects, what terms and conditions are mandatory subjects of bargaining? >> i appreciate the comments we have heard from everyone today about the need for college athletics to improve. whether it is college athletes players association or any other national labore there are a wide variety of things. broad that it would cover compensation, signing bonuses, retention bonuses, hours of work. terms of schedules,
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potentially even class attendance. if they are eventually certified as an organization, maybe they become greater, they wouldn't be limited to the goals we have heard today. >> if student athletes unionized, they will pay dues to the union. where do these payments come from? >> dues are an internal union matter. how they decide to do it is up to them. under the labor management relations act, it is clear that the employer can't pay it. the employer would have to bargain. that comes from wages. unless we are talking about wages in some form, the union would have to answer that. briefly oned taxation. these unions are tax-exempt.
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if a student becomes an employer, are they subject to taxation? does that affect student loans? how do we go down that road? >> beyond my area of expertise. that others can answer that question. >> does anybody have a comment on that? >> section 61 of the internal revenue code has a definition of what is income. if an individual is an employee, then very strong arguments it is unsettled -- obviously this is a new question, but it is going to open up serious questions about the entire range of services. there are issues presently with respect to how a scholarship is treated. if they are employees than it is compensation and it is taxable. >> if you presume that they would have to pay taxes, i would
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presume that the goals of scholarship negotiations, wage negotiations, would be to increase that amount to take into account the tax consequences. >> the gentleman yield back. >> thank you all for being here today. i just want to make a couple of comments on things i have heard in your testimony. something my colleague mr. courtney said. i knew a lot of football players at my school. this issue was a problem then. it is an issue today. why has it not been taking care of in more than 30 years? there is no reason for it. but for the courageous actions of these young men, we wouldn't be talking about it today. mr. livingston, you talked about the statehouse who has determined that our athletes are not employees. just because they said it, doesn't make it so. these are the same people that want to restrict voting rights.
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know that scholarship athletes are treated differently than those not on scholarship. we just need to admit it. andrestrictions they have the time commitment is much different than students who are not scholarship students. first question i would like to yourmr. schwarz, in testimony you mentioned a level of profit the ncaa is making off of student athletes. do you know if any of that is dedicated to providing health benefits to those students? >> some of it is. on-field injuries, the immediate cost of that injury is covered. it is not required but it is covered. long-term injuries typically are less likely to the covered. could i add one quick thing. that since you
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were in college, there has been a problem about cost of attendance. in ncaa voted them away 1973. they have been talking about bringing them back since 1973. in 1986, something was tried. in 2006, something was tried. now they are telling you it is coming real soon. there has been a long history of it coming real soon. >> the ncaa also doesn't want these people to be able to make a living as well. i was around when the whole scandal at statehouse happened. the shirts that they take off their backs, they can't sell. ask, what areo your football and basketball coaches making annually? >> i don't have the number off the top of my head. it is substantial. it is a free market. we want to keep our coaches. i am not at liberty to share
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the numbers. it is something that we don't share. >> thank you. i know the answer for baylor. the coach made $2.4 million. scott made $2.1 million. the women's basketball coach made $1.3 million. he made a little over $1 million. >> thank you. ,r. starr, you mentioned obviously the goal of attending a college or university is to obtain a degree. do you also realize that for division i football athletes, and men's basketball players, the graduation rates across-the-board the board hover around 50%? >> at baylor it is higher. it is 62% for our men's basketball team. i could not agree more.
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especially inate men's basketball this culture of student athlete. it begins with the coaches. the entire infrastructure has to be oriented toward that. these are young men and women who are making their own choices. they decide what is important for them. all the can do is create a culture of encouragement and genuine support. >> thank you very much. my time is going out. i will yield back. thank you. you very much. i will be brief. anyone can answer this question. do athletic scholarships give potential academic opportunities to students who are otherwise not having them available.
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surely based on their ability to play a sport? mr. muir? >> the opportunity to attend an institution like stanford, to compete at the highest level as well as get a quality education, we had less than 5% we admitted this year. when our coaches present young people with an opportunity to come compete at stanford, it is a wonderful experience. our kids understand and cherish that opportunity. they understand they are part of the fabric of the place. like an opportunity for our first-generation college attendees. it is a door opener. it has been historically. the ncaa has said that approximately 15% of student athletes who received scholarships are first-generation. it is a great part of the american story. >> i just have a brief comment.
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people testifying and members on both sides know that there are substantial issues we are discussing today. i am hopeful this discussion will continue and make it better for improvements to our college athletic system so that young people across the country can continue to compete. also, as many of you have outlined, have access to an educational experience that helps them in their future careers and down the line. i yield back. thank you very much, mr. chairman. it has been very interesting and i appreciate your expertise. i say your name correctly? >> you did. >> you talked about how the debate should be the best way to address the goal. i appreciate that. some of my colleagues have
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mentioned the importance of addressing the goals that the college athletes have. i was reading an editorial that came out that said the college sports establishment has brought this trouble on itself by not moving to address players' legitimate grievances. found somel director differences between what northwestern is doing and what you described in your experience. i wanted to ask a quick question. mr. eilers, you said you have an mba but you are not here representing northwestern. mr. livingston, do you represent northwestern? i was just curious about that because we have heard different experiences here and different facts about your colleges. about is thealking decision that is specific to northwestern. that thee things
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regional director found was that scholarship players are identified and recruited in the first instance because of their football prowess and not their aphid amick -- their academic achievement. mr. muir muir, you are shaking your head. is that different from your experience? >> when i think about what our torches -- what our coaches are doing, the first process they have to go through is making sure they can pass admissions. make sure that they can enter school just like the general students. we are weeding out individuals because they don't have the academic record. it doesn't matter what their athletic accomplishments are. if they are not able to meet the the education, that is not going to happen. >> i was trying to figure out from reading part of the regional director's opinion. itt happens if a class that
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scholarship player wants to take ,ecause of his or her major this could be expanded to women's sports as well, what happens if that class conflicts with practice? what does the college do? >> when i see student athletes practicing for competition, there is many a time when i will see student athletes walk off the field because they are attending a lab or a class. that comes first. >> they are not penalized for that? was that your experience too mr. eilers? >> it was. there are sacrifices. i took organic chemistry one summer between my sophomore and take thear, trying to labs. i would submit one additional item. what stanford does is incredible
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info all. time was a brief moment in before we ran into an unfortunate game in alabama, i was most proud of notre dame having the highest graduation rate as well as briefly being ranked number one in the country. you can do both. found regional director that northwestern has 97% graduation rate for players which seems to be pretty high. what happenssk, during the recruitment process? i mentioned what the finding was about northwestern. happens during that recruitment process? how are the prospective athletes made aware that the opportunities that are available to them -- how could they decide what they are considering during the consideration process?
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who has warned them about whether they will lose their scholarship if they don't stay on the team? >> in terms of the recruitment process, i have personally seen what that process looks like. it includes a very thorough introduction. they will meet people from the academic support staff. those -- there is a very holistic introduction to the university as a whole. including the academic side. onelly the parents or loved is there with the student athlete. thank you, my time is expired. >> i thank the chairman and the gentleman for their testimony today. judge starrheard,
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kind of clarified the issue. as we going to use the nlra a vehicle for the improvement that you have talked about today? i suspect no. i can't imagine the authors of the law. let's poke around with it. let's explore it a little bit. mr. livingston, if the students or the athletic department or university were to lock the players out like at a steel mill, during the collective bargaining process, with the students be able to attend class? >> the only experience we have sports is withal the entire league that goes on strike. >> that is with professional sports. >> in college, we don't have it so we don't know what would happen. would they stay in their dorms?
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would they have to leave class? those are unanswered questions. >> certainly unanswered. , northwestern is in the big ten conference along with two schools in indiana, one being perdue in my district. let's say that northwestern student athletes were to unionize and proceed to either strike or be locked out. how would that affect the rest of the conference? not being at northwestern, i don't know if it is appropriate for me to jump on that. >> using your experience and knowledge, what do you think would happen? >> it would be difficult to continue to schedule. a similarford were in situation, what would be the affect? opt toford might not continue to compete at the level we are currently competing at.
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>> my district also has st. joseph's college, which i am proud to be a board member of. it is a division ii school. if i understand right, you can share scholarships at that level. there is limited funds. again, experience, what would be the affect of division ii students with regard to this? >> i am not a legal expert but if the students at division ii wanted to unionize as well, i think that would affect whether institutions can continue to offer these offerings. which is part of the fabric of higher education. that would be a shame if that all of a sudden changed. and yourquestions answers continue to bring clarity to me that i don't think the law intended. mr. livingston. >> we are talking about
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scholarships. the union would be able to bargain about the number and value. it is all subject to bargaining under the nra. >> understood, thank you. aboutstarr, we often talk the cost of unionization, the cost of bargaining, the cost of , whether a union member should have to pay dues voluntarily or not have a choice in that. would be thehink cost of unionization for the employer and the employees? can you estimate costs of student athletes unionized at baylor? >> we have not punched her the numbers enough to come up with a reasonable estimate. what we do know is the idea of collective bargaining is to
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increase the whole reservoir of duly agreed-upon commitments by the employer. i think part of the question is, what can we do outside the collective bargaining that improves student welfare? that is the ultimate policy question. process isation raising a whole host of questions that we can't answer today. we do know the cost will go up. how is that student going to be treated as an employee in terms of taxation? >> that is a segue into my last question. world is a that the jury, people might get the impression that the acknowledgment that improvements need to me made is in a knowledge meant that someone was caught where this started as a reaction. can you give us evidence otherwise?
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i am sorry, the gentleman's time has expired. mr. scott. >> thank you, mr. chairman. , in many cases the scholarship requires you to play. in most cases? >> my understanding is that until 2011 the ncaa mandated that a scholarship could only be for one year. if you stop playing during the course of that year, you are allowed to continue for that year. after which, the scholarship would not be renewed. i thought you can continue with the scholarship whether you play or not. isn't that right? >> if you choose not to play football, the schools have the option to terminate the aid, even on a four-year deal. >> you indicated the number of
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hours that had to be committed. is an athlete required to comply with that schedule? out thatcts that came weren't controverted, it is a 40, 50, 60 hour a week job during the season and about half that off-season. >> before the ruling, could a student ever be an employee of the college? if they worked in the library or something like that? >> students are employees all the time. the stanford daily editor-in-chief makes about $45,000. >> in that case, is the status of a student -- does that affect status as an employee? >> no, they are mutually exclusive. the part-time job could be an essential part of the financial aid package. you get a scholarship to get a certain loan and a part-time job
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at the library. it is unlikely that if you quit your job at the library, you would lose the rest of your scholarship. that would be unheard of, wouldn't it? >> i think that is right. lots of ways that students outside of sports can be compensated. at stanford there was a class that required students to sell an app on facebook. to commercialize was part of the requirements of the class. they got credit for doing that. possible that some student athletes would qualify as employees and others not qualify? they understanding is ruling applies only to athlete to receive a scholarship. >> if you have a scholarship and
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just put a couple hours a week in swimming or wrestling or some other sport that doesn't have the time commitment, is it possible that you would be a student athlete and not an employee? >> i object to the term student athlete, because it is a question -- it is a term to dodge legal obligations. if you say college athlete, they go to college and they play sports. some is possible that would qualify as employees and some would not. >> i think that is right. >> if the college wanted to avoid the union problem, they could treat them like students and not employees. is that right? >> i am not sure i am fully understanding. >> if you get a scholarship with band and club or the are not required to put in these kind of hours, you would be a college athlete. >> right now, the chess team has more rights than college athletes. the chess team could say, i want
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a college scholarship that covers more than just the athletic scholarship. they have the right to bargain but football athletes don't. assome would qualify employees and others would not. >> i think that is correct. >> mr. eilers, you indicated that the issues of the scholarships, medical treatment, the right to minimize brain trauma and other situations like that, a union could engage these issues. if it is not the union, who would be in a bargaining position to engage these issues and have the resources to do the research and make a presentation on behalf of the athletes? >> as i said in my testimony, i don't have a solution. to me, it should be the ncaa.
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just to clarify what i think are some misconceptions, schools operate differently. at notre dame there is a specific instance of a scholarship athlete who decided after his sophomore year not to play football anymore. we honored his scholarship. he graduated in four years. there may be other schools that operate differently. ons were treated like the scholarship athletes. maybe at ohio state they weren't. there needs to be an elevation across all collegiate sports to make sure that we are delivering for the student. >> the gentleman's time has expired. >> thank you all for your testimony. i am the daughter of a high school football coach. i soccermother of a d-
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graduate who suffered a serious concussion in high school in the last game of her high school career. after wonderful medical treatment and proper healing, she went on to play for years of soccer. many parents and people who are helping these athletes get scholarships which they all work so very hard in their lives to achieve those scholarships, parents advocate for these young people. the students advocate. the student athlete advisory committee of the ncaa advocates. i would assume the president of the university' and the representatives of the conferences are advocates for these athletes. i would submit that there are many avenues to rectify the problems and there are continued problems. these athletes make these
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choices as to which schools to attend. one thing we haven't talked about enough is the role of the coaches in all of this process. the coaches who are employees of to university, who report the athletic directors, who report to the college presidents, what mechanisms are there for the students to voice their concerns with the coaches and the coaches to voice their concerns to the administration? and ato have at baylor most institutions, there is a student athletic council. these are student athlete to come together, they are elected by their fellow student athletes and they have direct access to the athletic director. they can also communicate with someone who we haven't talked about, the faculty athletic representative who is to bring an epidemic -- an academic perspective to bear.
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you are absolutely right. there are numerous avenues for voices to be heard. leaves thatelf be in its governance, it has not done well in terms of assuring the student athlete voice. there are reforms underway that i think would be adopted, that will better ensure that student athletes are there. >> we have a number of opportunities to hear from our student athletes and coaches. the student athlete council at chance for mes a to check in and hear their issues and concerns. also, we survey all of our student athletes after every season and provide feedback. they can do it anonymously and we get information on how their experience is going.
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also, the coaches have an open door policy. we look for that when we select our coaches. that is another opportunity for student athletes to engage. we have administrators, counselors, tutors, all united to make sure their experience is the best it can be. >> is it fair to say that your coaches are judged in their and on the graduation rates of their athlete? >> we are looking at the graduation rates and what they are doing in the classroom, what they are doing to make sure they are solid citizens and a part of university fabric. >> i know there is always attention when student athletes have to leave and may miss classes or test. indicated, there are faculty representatives and there has to be that relationship with the faculty and the athletic department to ensure that the students take the tests, get the proper
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reinforcement, and addition, the study halls. my daughter, there were numerous study tables that required student athletes to achieve certain gpas. those were requirements, that they must achieve a certain gpa to get out of the study hall. >> it wasn't proactive like it is today when i was there. if you didn't perform well, you got sent to study hall. today, they default to everybody starting in study hall. i am aware of institutions that take academics and athletics seriously. have provisions in their contracts. if they don't graduate student athletes, there are negative implications to their salary and career. >> thank you. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman.
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, i was impressed with the concern and the way that you agree with the concerns and goals but you have a concern about unionization. these concerns existed for decades. i wish that you had an idea what you would do if you did unionize. , these are not new problems are they? >> not at all. the issue of cost of attendance stipends as been an issue since 1973 when the ncaa took them away. >> there are lots of advocates out there. it apparently has been very effective. it is a one-sided discussion. thatere was also a comment the college athlete has choices. what would you say to that? >> i am advocating for a more free-market opportunity. i think choice would be great.
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students have a choice but what they don't have a choice about is the full package that they receive because the school has fixed the price. everyone offers the same thing, so we limit the choice. have $3.2a seems to billion in revenue. they can't address even five basic issues except to say that it is coming soon? >> the idea that this is a money-losing industry is incredible. if you look at a money-losing industry, you wouldn't see rising pay for employees. you wouldn't see firms flocking into the industry. 19 new schools have entered since 1996. none have left. you wouldn't see bonuses for sports results instead of academic results. the money is in the system. it is just being denied to the primary generators. >> you said that money is being
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funneled to football coaches instead of athletes. some coaches get paid $7 million. when the money is going to puts a cap sort of on that and the primes female athletes of matching funds. >> that is right. title ix doesn't apply to coaching pay. that is why male coaches can make more than female coaches. it applies to financial aid. if that eight is capped, and even the ncaa wishes it were would, lifting that cap result in effectively matching funds to female athletes. , i want to go to your testimony. i am going to quote it. the amount of financial aid awards for student athletes must be in the same proportion as the intercollegiate sports participation rate of males and
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females. from theok at the data department of education website, it shows that baylor spends $.56 on male scholarships but only $.44 on women's scholarships. the participation rate says that they should be giving something like $.42 to men and $.52 -- $.58 to women. you have some serious explaining to do. i want to give you the opportunity to explain to us the disparity between the scholarship dollars for men and women. >> that is a very dynamic and fluid process. it may change from year to year. if there is a disparity, it has to be addressed. we have to come forward with explanations as to why there may be a temporary disparity. we recently created two new women's sports with scholarships
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to address the disparity. we have created a equestrian with a number of scholarships. we have created acrobatics and tumbling. >> you believe this is a temporary issue? are you saying that with some knowledge of the fact or are you just guessing? >> i don't know the specifics of that specific disparity. what i do know is that the academic department, the athletic department, does have to focus on this with our title ix compliance officer. we have a compliance officer who reviews these issues. >> i am disturbed that the ncaa has the answer to these issues which i agree that should be addressed. even the title ix questions, we are working on it. >> can i just share a comment? i have the same frustration. i would like to see this implemented.
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the one thing i didn't want to throw on the table, when i was a student athlete at notre dame, trying to prepare for class, i couldn't conceive when this came up of trying to think about threatening to strike or getting to the football game and not leaving the locker room because the man's weren't being met. weren't being met. >> apparently we need to take graphic action just to get the conversation started. >> the gentleman's time has expired. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thanks to the panel for being here. i didn't participate in a revenue sport. i was in an olympic sport. wrestling and high school and college for the time that i did that was probably the best training for life that i ever had. i did it out of the joy of the sport, made it a choice.
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suffered four shoulder surgeries as a result of that. i looked back and i would do it all over again. i appreciate also the aspect that there has to be care taken for athletes. i respect what you have said about your concerns already on that. testimony youour state stanford has taken steps to cover medical costs for injuries, promote player safety and research prevention and effects of concussions. could you elaborate more on those steps? are these consistent with ncaa rules? >> they are. we have our stanford medical onm doing concussion studies football student-athletes and soccer student athletes. what they have told me is this research is going to be lengthy. we can't today say, here is how we prevent that from happening. certainly they are observing that.
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they have a medical mouthpiece that they put in each of the student athletes that track where blows come from. that is going to be an ongoing study for us. in terms ofoard, student welfare, that is something that we hold close and dear to us. it is important that we try to enhance those things as we move forward. athletes student understand this? aware ofmade opportunities, considerations, programs? >> they are the ones who are wearing those mouthpieces, getting educated on the risks that are involved. there is obviously great discussion about what the future holds. that is something they engage in and i think it has been worthwhile. stateng that line, you that stanford has taken steps to protect scholarship support for
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students who are medically disqualified from playing. what are those steps? >> we have three incoming student-athletes athletes who have been awarded scholarships. they were not able to finish senior year in competition. we still honored the scholarships. we are looking forward to them contributing once they are healthy. we have other student athletes who have gotten injured and we still honor their scholarships. we are here to make sure they get their degree and we will do everything in our power to make sure that happens. >> what about baylor? >> the same policy. student fact care for athletes and football players if they are injured. the scholarship continues. we believe we have a moral obligation with respect to an injury sustained in football, even post-graduation. >> notre dame as far as you know, mr. eilers?
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as i know, notre dame is consistent with the other testimony. , imr. muir and mr. eilers would like you to comment as well. it appears that the ncaa will revisit the stipend issue. we have talked about that. what is the major concern of the stipend issue from your perspective as an athletic director? >> the major issue i think is that used -- each institution is trying to pay cost of attendance. that cost of attendance is different and trying to figure out the exact number where we can try to be equitable. the other thing mr. schwarz had mentioned as well is the resources that would be necessary to provide that. not all schools are able to meet that cost of attendance. it is a concern for them. that is a difficult one and that
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is why we spend so many years trying to figure that out. i do feel because of the discussion and dialogue that we are closer. we need to enhance that overall experience for the athletes. it is difficult from school to school since there are so few that are truly making revenue. it makes it hard. i do think we are making progress but it is going to take a little more time. >> mr. eilers? anecdotally, my parents were able to give me out-of-pocket expense money when i was on scholarship at notre dame. my little brother was there two years younger than me. he became a college all-american and played with my last year at the chicago bears. he came from a single-parent family, had no out-of-pocket money. people, his to
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teammates, his mentors, to make sure that he could go out to dinner with us, do laundry, etc. off-campus. i just think that is wrong. >> i had my first rustling win at chicago. >> the gentleman's time is expired. ofi am the former chancellor post secondary education for the state of alabama. don't hold that against me. [laughter] i am also a former labor lawyer who represented numerous clients from the national labor relations board. this issue fascinates me. i have dealt with it both ways. , does haver colleges athletic programs. we had a golfer at faulkner state community college named bubba watson. bubba went on to the university of georgia but he started at an
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alabama two-year college. we are also proud of all those student athletes. the vast majority of them will never do what bubba does but we hope they get a good education. you know judge starr that when the are dealing with students in that environment, they bring life issues with them. they may be students, they may be at the late, but they are also young people. they have life issues and we have coaches and counselors that deal with them on stuff that happens on the field and off the field. you can't take them apart. they come together like that. i guess what bothers me about this whole issue -- and i want to share the concerns i have heard about the ncaa. i see that as a separate issue. we are trying to use the wrong tool to get at some of those issues. what concerns me is that students organize and we have to
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deal with a union representative instead of the students. what does that do to the obligation, the responsibility -- i know you feel it -- to deal with the student athletes with their life issues and the stuff that is not directly involved with whatever they are doing on the field? what does that do to that? >> it would be very disruptive. you are right that the relationship is a very individual relationship. it is not just the coach and the coaching staff. it is that entire battery of support services. it is also the faculty member. it is the representative to the student athletic council. at baylor, we have a very vibrant chaplaincy program. there is the spiritual element as well. trying to channel everything into a set of labor law issues
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of wages and terms and conditions, it seems to be very artificial and arbitrary and not serving the interests of the individual student athlete. a mr. muir do you have vantage point on that? >> i do. i think about the relationships we build with young people. prior to coming to college, we start early now. when they get to be seniors. that carries through, not only the four years or five years that they are in campus, but we want them to have a relationship with us once they graduate and have a degree. that relationship is important to us. we have students that have other issues that need to be dealt with. ,hey feel open and for the most the majority of them, they are able to come to someone here whether it be a faculty member, coach, administrator. that is the beauty of the college environment and i think that is really important to keep in mind. as we noted, there is many
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issues that need to be addressed and i think we are working our way to getting those done. it is always a loving. >> i would ask this question to legal counsel. whovantage point of people are dealing with the student athletes on things that go far beyond what happens in there at actual athletic right to deallra with the issues that people seem to have with the ncaa? if we start creating a bigger definition of employee, it is going to affect all whole lot of people, not just people who are governed by the ncaa. is the n
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>> based on recent decisions, it would clearly violate them. the coach has required the students to be a facebook friend. recent board cases have made it clear that at violates the right likely itloyee, already violates the and lra. it is just not the appropriate tool. >> for closing remarks, i am going to yield to these students democratic member. >> thank you. i think this is a very important hearing. america is in the throes of on a daily basis
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socially and economically anywhere possible, entrepreneurs and those who take risks. grievances that these players presented is a list of grievances they could have presented five years ago or 10 years ago across the college community but they have not been addressed. in thelayers were put position of being in the edge all the time. scholarship, no scholarship, classes, no classes. places a very interesting to keep your students that you feel so much about. the ncaa does not let you do that as a university. have some remarkable examples here. you know you are not typical across the board of high-stakes across this country all stop we know the athletes are not typical.
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you are graduating people but we also have clusters of athletes to go to certain classes who may not apply for their graduation so they are short but they stay eligible by taking the classes. you eligibleing but we know this landscape. to look at the landscape. critics out of the industry, but the fact of the matter is that the landscape has changed dramatically. been in congress long enough to know that when i see what we should get involved with accreditation or whatever, you don't meet the college president you meet the college coach. the education journals, sports journals, are constantly debating the question of who is the most powerful
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person on campus, the president or the coach. is handling there of the firing or hiring of a coach. these concerns that these young men, who are willing to take the risks on, they exist on every campus. whether or not you have the security of a scholarship or how long. health or not you have insurance or have injuries if you lose your scholarship. stipends, transfers, we have been over this and over this. i think i had the first concussion here. public not proper for discussion. this is a sport. this is voluntary. see the damage done. i have worked with many nfl coaches and players. we could not get to first basis.
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.o first base finally, the players association went to court and we know the rest is history. that is just the beginning. the fact of the matter is the determination was made it would be better to run the operation the way the owners wanted to run it than to deal with these issues. if you change the game, it has already changed the viewership. big kitsot run those because the audience as a different reaction these days. they know that those did hit have consequences -- they know that those big hits have consequences. we know what could happen if there is unionization. why don't we think about what would happen if we took care of the students. care of thels took
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schools and not the ncaa. made all theisions time by the ncaa. i remember talking to sports journalists about the issues. that means if you think you are going to the nba or you are going to the nfl and you cannot get into the layoffs because everyone is poking at your performance. that is a huge punishment. show they are to very tough on the school? no, they are tough on a bunch of students who were here when the infractions took lace. there is a lot to think about. we spend a lot of time on higher education and the approaches we take. herenk that you are because you are leaders in the field. you are not immune to this.
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is the stanford daily where i asked to put in the list of classes that are easy. no one knew about them. they major in eligibility. the senate will hear about north carolina, i do not know she's here are not -- >> there you are. you all know we have been through these scandals before so immunizationy get like the nfl, like the nba will , notthis is college sports seeo a, this is -- not and aa. i was so proud of this, i happen , the mostg donor exciting moment of my life. i have played a lot of football but not at that level. we know the influences here.
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athletes, i dot not think you treat the other students like this on campus. better that somebody take control of the situation again. the journals i read, the president is losing in this war against the coaches. right, this is like that conference in california. it is always coming but it never arrives. arbitraryives these theers and it's against students, the schools and sometimes against the coaches. i have been here for two years. i have seen a lot of people go out of the symptom. by thesel decision
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young people, there was no other outlet for them. i would not be so concerned about whether or not they are onng to go out on the field saturday. themember talking about night, when the network decided they needed a midweek name. -- a midweekve it game. you can keep defending it, but i want to work on changing it. thank you. i think the gentleman, and i thank the witnesses. a lots of expertise and real knowledge. i appreciate it. there is a lot of positions here , somebody who was a top-level college athlete and went on to play for the nfl and has very
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strong feelings and opinions to these issues and has pointed them out very eloquently. we have problems out there as was pointed out needs to be addressed will stop what brought this hearing together was the actions of a regional direct or of the national labor relations lord. that theseted athletes are employees and therefore could, if they chose, votes to join a union. so we are exploring some of the possible downsides of that issue. we heard from witnesses here who talked about how this dealt with class attendance. how that dealt with attending walk on games, universities who do not fall under the labor relations act and a host, frankly, of potential problems. i very much appreciate the testimony of the witnesses today
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as we start to explore that will stop i do not think there is a person on this committee that does not agree we need to address some of those very issues that we talked about. is unionization of some sports, some players, and some schools the appropriate tool to get to that and? end? i think some of you who are in the field, as it were, as athletic erectors and presidents and those concerned should do the things that mr. miller was talking about, that we address these issues. i do not believe the sporadic arguingtion, i am not
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for a bigger bargaining union there, but the law is the wrong law, the wrong tool to use here. there being get no further business, the committee is adjourned. i 34 t looks like they are [captioning performed by
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national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014]
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next, a house hearing addressing issues decriminalizing marijuana at antop then, investigation of weightless in phoenix. >> economic freedom is my guiding principle. is their authority to act on a given issue. to consumersrmful and is there a solution to remedy the harm. solution regulated
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by an analogy. do the benefits of regulation outweigh the costs. that is how i am approaching each individual issue. new commissioner michael o'reilly, tonight, on "the communicators lowe's quote on c-span 2. >> you can now take c-span with you wherever you go with our free c-span. listen to all of the tv channels or radio any time. and there is a schedule of all of our network so you can tune in whenever you want full stop -- whenever you want. online toour full app your android or blackberry.
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>> decriminalizing marijuana was the topic of the congressional hearing on friday. that acting police and chief of police, spoke about decriminalizing marijuana possession. d.c.'s mirror has signed a bill this portiont -- of the hearing is one hour and a half. >> i would like to welcome everyone with a call to order.

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